Hi,
I'm new to the forum and in need of some advice please.
I have had my 2 year old grandaughter living with me, unofficially until recently, since 07/11/2011.
Her story is that her father and mother split up and the mother basically 'walked away' within 2 months as she had with two previous children from an earlier relationship. Her father, my son, was granted a residence order which he legally didn't even need! He had the baby for a couple of weeks before asking for my help. At this point myself and my partner started to have her for one night, which was soon two then three, then five nights within two to three months.
By November 2011 baby was staying with us on a permanent basis whilst seeing Dad almost every day. He moved into my eldest sons, next door to me, so that we could encourage him to take care of his baby. He didn't care for her at all but seemed to act like a 'much older brother' and if we asked that he do something for her we told to get lost and do it ourselves!
He was in receipt of all benefits for baby and did not give anything towards her care financially.
In April 2012 I enquired of social services and voiced my concerns I also told them of my sons use of steroids and his mounting aggression towards me, not so much towards his baby, although he did shout at her a lot and verbally abused her regulary.
They said to seek a solicitors advice which i did.
My son left our area in May 2012 and moved almost 200 miles away, he stayed away for 6 weeks, he then came back and stated he was taking baby to live with him and a new girlfriend who had had her 2 children taken away from her a few years ago and that they were now with her mother and his girlfriend has no contact!
My solicitor advised I apply for a RO or a SGO. Unfortunately financial help was refused until I had told my son of my intentions and mediation had been tried.
At this point, July 2012, I had my own father come to my house so I could tell my son what our intentions were, in the hope he would agree, how wrong I was.
He kicked off and the police were involved, I told them of my concerns for his care of the baby and asked them to contact SS, they did and SS decided that baby should be with us until investigations were carried out. I had removed baby from the environment prior to telling my son as I didn't want her seeing everything!
My son promptly left, the next day, to return to his girlfriend although he was invited to stay at my other sons until things were dealt with!
He has since had contact via phone and MSN. Baby will rarely speak to him and gets upset as he tells her he's going to 'pick her up'. Contact is sporadic. I keep a diary as he also abuses me and makes unreasonable accusations. Baby says things like 'I don't like him' 'no Daddy you stay there' 'I can't be bothered' when he wants to speak to her.
He says he's seen a solicitor and baby will be back with him as soon as 'you take me to court'!
Mediation was deemed inappropriate.
There has been no 'real' social services contact with baby and family other than a couple of domestic violance incidents and one time when both parents were arrested for growing cannabis! Apparently this is 'nothing'! Although Dad was arrested at Xmas for breach of the peace and domestic damage and then let out without charge as I stupidly said he could come to my house.
I insisted on a social worker in July when Dad left again to do a report of the baby's circumstances and the SW who has been seeing baby and us is more than happy for her to be here. They say they do not want her to return to Dad on a permanent basis.
It appears to be getting closer to a court date, if legal aid is granted, I'm worried about what might happen.
I know that the mother is going to have to be contacted but I doubt they'll even find her as she is from a travelling family!
Sorry for such a long first post but it's taken me weeks to find a forum where I might get some 'personal' advice. Any help and advice is greatly appreciated as we've never been in this situation before!
Me and Mine
Which order?
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Robin D
- Posts: 2156
- Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:58 pm
Re: Which order?
Hi and welcome.
I'll start by summarising my thoughts on reading your post. You have been doing a great job thus far!
Well done.
Pending court cases are very stressful, and your son is playing the usual mind games that so may of us have seen. If the facts are as stated, and SS are supporting, I'd have said its unlikely that any court would rule that your grand-daughter going to live with your son and girlfriend are low.
You do need to face the fact that with the current rules on legal aid you are unlikely to get any. That is not the end of the world though. Almost any contested hearing with have a guardian appointed by the court, and very often a solicitor as well for the child. Although they represent the child, they are generally very supportive of those in the situation you find yourselves.
You can find full details of applying for a SGO without a solicitor at http://www.frg.org.uk/need-help-or-advice/advice-sheets section E. I'm not saying that its easy, but those that have done it say its nowhere as difficult as they thought! Even if you decide you need a solicitor, many will work with you and allow you to do most of the leg work hence keeping costs to a minimum. Indeed, if you do get funding, it will still help tremendously if you have been through the DIY guide.
The other factor is that even at age 2, if your granddaughter expresses a view, it has to be taken into account.
Reading between the lines, a huge factor in your favour is the family support you seem to have from your father and other son. These are very important as the court will want to know that you have backup in caring for the child when you are under pressure, or unwell.
I'm sure other regulars will chip in with support and advice, and please feel free to rant at any time. David Roth is also very helpful in bringing current thinking and cases to the table.
Good luck ..... Robin
I'll start by summarising my thoughts on reading your post. You have been doing a great job thus far!
Well done. Pending court cases are very stressful, and your son is playing the usual mind games that so may of us have seen. If the facts are as stated, and SS are supporting, I'd have said its unlikely that any court would rule that your grand-daughter going to live with your son and girlfriend are low.
You do need to face the fact that with the current rules on legal aid you are unlikely to get any. That is not the end of the world though. Almost any contested hearing with have a guardian appointed by the court, and very often a solicitor as well for the child. Although they represent the child, they are generally very supportive of those in the situation you find yourselves.
You can find full details of applying for a SGO without a solicitor at http://www.frg.org.uk/need-help-or-advice/advice-sheets section E. I'm not saying that its easy, but those that have done it say its nowhere as difficult as they thought! Even if you decide you need a solicitor, many will work with you and allow you to do most of the leg work hence keeping costs to a minimum. Indeed, if you do get funding, it will still help tremendously if you have been through the DIY guide.
The other factor is that even at age 2, if your granddaughter expresses a view, it has to be taken into account.
Reading between the lines, a huge factor in your favour is the family support you seem to have from your father and other son. These are very important as the court will want to know that you have backup in caring for the child when you are under pressure, or unwell.
I'm sure other regulars will chip in with support and advice, and please feel free to rant at any time. David Roth is also very helpful in bringing current thinking and cases to the table.
Good luck ..... Robin
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Me and Mine
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:58 pm
Re: Which order?
Thank you for your advice.
We have a large family to support us. I have my partner who the baby is very attached to, two daughters living within minutes, 4 other 'older' grandaughters, my sister and two nieces who are always on the end of the phone as well as my mother of course who has been fantastic!
We've already started a little 'chip in', I also have some fantastic friends, just in case we are refused legal aid as my solicitor has said there is a change occuring in October which will most likely make it diffcult to get help!
My son has played mind games for years, he's 23, he also has 'symptoms of multiple personality disorder' according to a psychiatrist that was asked to assess him when he was younger and in trouble with the police due to a dangerous weapon/assault charge! Nothing came of that either as he's such a good little actor!
Thankfully my granddaughter is very mature and advanced for her age, I have her in day care 3 afternoons a week where they have put her with 4-5 year olds, she has made it very clear to her SW that she does not want to speak to her Daddy. She knows exactly who he is but although at the moment we are encouraging her to have contact via phone and MSN she regularly turns the pc off so that she doesn't have to speak to him and cancels phone calls on the blackberry!
I've looked at the advice sheets and it seems we would have to apply for permission first as we only have family and friends who can prove she's been with us since November!
Me and Mine
We have a large family to support us. I have my partner who the baby is very attached to, two daughters living within minutes, 4 other 'older' grandaughters, my sister and two nieces who are always on the end of the phone as well as my mother of course who has been fantastic!
We've already started a little 'chip in', I also have some fantastic friends, just in case we are refused legal aid as my solicitor has said there is a change occuring in October which will most likely make it diffcult to get help!
My son has played mind games for years, he's 23, he also has 'symptoms of multiple personality disorder' according to a psychiatrist that was asked to assess him when he was younger and in trouble with the police due to a dangerous weapon/assault charge! Nothing came of that either as he's such a good little actor!
Thankfully my granddaughter is very mature and advanced for her age, I have her in day care 3 afternoons a week where they have put her with 4-5 year olds, she has made it very clear to her SW that she does not want to speak to her Daddy. She knows exactly who he is but although at the moment we are encouraging her to have contact via phone and MSN she regularly turns the pc off so that she doesn't have to speak to him and cancels phone calls on the blackberry!
I've looked at the advice sheets and it seems we would have to apply for permission first as we only have family and friends who can prove she's been with us since November!
Me and Mine
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David Roth
- Posts: 2021
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:14 am
Re: Which order?
Hi Me & Mine, and welcome to Family Rights Group's discussion forum. I hope you will find the advice and support here useful.
I don't really have much to add to Robin's excellent comments, except to address your original question of: which order?
I take it this means you are uncertain about whether to apply for a residence order or a special guardianship order? If you follow the link Robin has provided to FRG's advice sheets, you will find very full legal information that outlines what each of these two orders means.
The nub of it is that if you and your son get along fine, and are able to come to an agreement about decisions about your granddaughter, such as where she will go to school, or whether she could spend a few weeks abroad with you, then a residence order would be right for you. However, if you are concerned that your son, or the child's mother, might try to interfere with decisions you'd like to make about your granddaughter, then special guardianship would probably be better. This is because, while both order would give you parental responsibility, while alloowing your son to retain it, under special guardianship you have the right to exercise parental responsiblity to the exclusion of anybody else.
If you want to talk your situation over with one of our advisers, you can phone the Family Rights Group advice line - it's free to all landlines and most mobile phones, and you can call between 9.30 and 3.30 Monday to Friday. The number 0808 801 0366.
I don't really have much to add to Robin's excellent comments, except to address your original question of: which order?
I take it this means you are uncertain about whether to apply for a residence order or a special guardianship order? If you follow the link Robin has provided to FRG's advice sheets, you will find very full legal information that outlines what each of these two orders means.
The nub of it is that if you and your son get along fine, and are able to come to an agreement about decisions about your granddaughter, such as where she will go to school, or whether she could spend a few weeks abroad with you, then a residence order would be right for you. However, if you are concerned that your son, or the child's mother, might try to interfere with decisions you'd like to make about your granddaughter, then special guardianship would probably be better. This is because, while both order would give you parental responsibility, while alloowing your son to retain it, under special guardianship you have the right to exercise parental responsiblity to the exclusion of anybody else.
If you want to talk your situation over with one of our advisers, you can phone the Family Rights Group advice line - it's free to all landlines and most mobile phones, and you can call between 9.30 and 3.30 Monday to Friday. The number 0808 801 0366.
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Me and Mine
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:58 pm
Re: Which order?
Hi,
Just an update.
I was given an SGO in respect of my granddaughter on the 18/06/13.
No contact order was made for either parent who have not tried to attend any of the court dates, nor attended contact that was arranged, since January!
Although I haven't been a regular poster I did pop back now and again to find advice, via other threads etc, it was this advice that helped me to secure my granddaughters future so quickly
Thankyou for the advice given and for the other threads that helped me.
Dawn
Just an update.
I was given an SGO in respect of my granddaughter on the 18/06/13.
No contact order was made for either parent who have not tried to attend any of the court dates, nor attended contact that was arranged, since January!
Although I haven't been a regular poster I did pop back now and again to find advice, via other threads etc, it was this advice that helped me to secure my granddaughters future so quickly
Thankyou for the advice given and for the other threads that helped me.
Dawn
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