contact problems

[spottydogs45]

hello there, i needa bit of advice if some1can help pls... i have an sgo for my gd she's 7 and there's been problems with the mum at contact...been aggressive n keeps giving verbal abuse at me at contact in front of the kid multiple times to the point where she's crying and ask if it's her fault so i absolutely reassured the little one it's not. abusive texts come thru that i dare not reply to because no matter how reasonable n calm i am, it just comes back as my fault. kinship care team from LA have been by my side the whole way and supportive, cannot fault em, always said the little one is absolutely thriving and everything i've done is in her best interest and never been unreasonable. but cos of mum's behaviour in front of the little one (more than once it's happened) i've told her until she's a bit more stable, she can call instead. order originally states she can see her once a month 3 hours all supervised by me, but i decided myself with the little ones wishes to do 2x a month. i have changed the arranged days at mum's request, the meeting place at her request, paid for mum when shes said she's short, even let time run over on the occasional day contact has went well for the little one, all to help mum and daughter build a relationship but abuse is still coming through and the little one has said she's scared and feels unsafe and i been accussed of lying by mum yet my gd told the LA herself when i reported it, thats why i've said calls only for now until mum manages herself for the sake of the kid then face to face can resume as before. always been patient with mum as she got sum MH issues but does not mean i should put up w/ abuse. but now been nearly 3 months and not a call or text has come thru only an invite to mediate for unsupervised and this is the 3rd time yet she was told by me, LA and dad that she is not ready yet. feel her frustration but i got to keep the little one safe as i'm the SG. will always try keep mum and kid in contact no matter what as she loves her mummy but needs to be safely. have i done the right thing???

[Robin D]

Absolutely the right thing. We had a similar mother and several times broke off contact because she was upsetting the children and then always missed the next one or so until the massage got through. Oddly enough, 25 or so years later we are still in contact with mum. She took had a terrible childhood, but we couldn't stand by while she went on a tirade with her children so simply removed them. As the older two stopped going, the youngest refused to go at all. That went all the way to the High Court who ex parte ruled the child would see his mother as he took was terrified of her. He continued to refuse. A children's rights officer in the LA we were living the in, different to the one responsible for the child, got involved and told the court it could not order a 12 year old to see my m. The court agreed. Sadly, the child only ever saw his mum once after that at age 38 before he passed away age 39 from his terrible heart problems.

Yes you have a duty to maintain contact unless you put the child at risk of emotional harm.

[spottydogs45]

thanks for your reply Robin D, glad and reassured to know i'm not the only 1 who's been through something like this, as much of a headache as it can be. mum's behaviour is pretty volatile and i can't bear to see the little one upset so i absolutely have to protect her as much as she loves her mummy... would i be wrong if i said no to mediation??? she has been told by myself, dad and LA what needs to happen for unsupervised but hasn't taken it on board and keeps the verbal abuse going...would it look bad in court if i turned it down?? i don't know if i can face her, it really has had an affect on me emotionally and there's another 11yrs of this sgo left, i just wish it would stop as all ive wanted to do is make sure this little girl is safe and happy

[Robin D]

Sadly if you look around here you will find many examples of many others going through similar problems, including one of the other currently active topics.

If the LA have told mum what needs to happen, that will be written down somewhere. Hopefully you have a copy? I also hope you are keeping a diary of what happens and when. Even so, it appears that her behaviour is reasonably well documented. If you have abusive texts, WhatsApp, emails or letters make sure you keep them. Should she take it back to court, you only have to show that you acted reasonably and with the welfare of the child at the centre of your thinking. Taking action to protect the child from emotional harm can never go against you in court even if the odd solicitor or barrister might try to show you acted unreasonably. If it became contested, the court would ask the LA or Cafcass to do a report.

Unfortunately, none of this takes away the stress and strain on you. You might want to look at https://frg.org.uk/get-help-and-advice/ ... ort-group/ to see if there is a local support group. Having contact with others going through similar is very empowering.

Good luck ... Robin

[spottydogs45]

yes, everything mentioned here the kinship team is fully aware of, i keep them regularly updated, and they keep records of every meeting i've had with them and also mum and dad too. i've kept all the text messages. a assessment/worksheet was done with the little one where they asked her what emotions she felt about me, mum and dad. that's where she told them how she felt about mum, so that is documented too. i think if it were to go down legal routes we would have a lot of evidence to say why i stood my ground, so that takes the pressure off massively. thanks for referring the support group, i will be looking into this so i feel less alone. thank goodness for the internet and forums like this one

[Suzie, FRG Adviser]

hello there, i needa bit of advice if some1can help pls... i have an sgo for my gd she's 7 and there's been problems with the mum at contact...been aggressive n keeps giving verbal abuse at me at contact in front of the kid multiple times to the point where she's crying and ask if it's her fault so i absolutely reassured the little one it's not. abusive texts come thru that i dare not reply to because no matter how reasonable n calm i am, it just comes back as my fault. kinship care team from LA have been by my side the whole way and supportive, cannot fault em, always said the little one is absolutely thriving and everything i've done is in her best interest and never been unreasonable. but cos of mum's behaviour in front of the little one (more than once it's happened) i've told her until she's a bit more stable, she can call instead. order originally states she can see her once a month 3 hours all supervised by me, but i decided myself with the little ones wishes to do 2x a month. i have changed the arranged days at mum's request, the meeting place at her request, paid for mum when shes said she's short, even let time run over on the occasional day contact has went well for the little one, all to help mum and daughter build a relationship but abuse is still coming through and the little one has said she's scared and feels unsafe and i been accussed of lying by mum yet my gd told the LA herself when i reported it, thats why i've said calls only for now until mum manages herself for the sake of the kid then face to face can resume as before. always been patient with mum as she got sum MH issues but does not mean i should put up w/ abuse. but now been nearly 3 months and not a call or text has come thru only an invite to mediate for unsupervised and this is the 3rd time yet she was told by me, LA and dad that she is not ready yet. feel her frustration but i got to keep the little one safe as i'm the SG. will always try keep mum and kid in contact no matter what as she loves her mummy but needs to be safely. have i done the right thing???

Dear spottydogs45

Welcome to the kinship carers’ discussion forum and thank you for your post.

You are special guardian to your granddaughter for whom you have a special guardianship order. Unfortunately, contact has not been going well because of her mother's behaviour. In order to facilitate contact you have tried to be reasonable with mum but this has not helped the situation.

As a result of mum’s abusive behaviour in front of your granddaughter you decided to reduce the amount of contact the mother has with her daughter. It seems, from what you say in your post that contact is specified in a court order which means that if you wanted to change the amount of contact you should have asked the court to vary/amend the order. Whilst I understand and the court probably would too, you are technically in breach of the court order.

The mother is now, it seems, mother is now considering an application to the court. She has contacted a family mediation service which is a requirement before applying to the court. This process is to help parties work with an independent third party to try and resolve issues without court proceedings. It is your decision whether you take part but may find it helpful.

If mother makes an application to the court, she will have to satisfy the court of the changes she has made and that it would be in the child’s best interest for contact arrangements to change. You would also have the opportunity to explain your position/concerns to the court.

You may find these advice sheets helpful as they explain special guardianship for parents. and support for special guardians

It must be reassuring for you that the special guardians support services have no concerns regarding your care of your granddaughter.

If you would like to speak with an adviser, you can telephone our advice line on 0808 801 0366. The advice line is open from 9.30am to 3.00pm Monday to Friday (except Bank Holidays)

Hope this is helpful.

Best wishes

Suzie

[spottydogs45]

hello Suzie,
thank you for the reply, i am aware there is a court order in place but it is upsetting my g/d and there has been signs of emotional abuse from her e.g crying bc mum is crying and asking if it's her fault, and also saying 'i can't talk about X and Y in front of mummy or she will get mad' as an SG i can't just sit back and watch it happen because i have a feeling it will get worse and i have to keep her safe. i should have a right to protect her, so would this not be reasonable grounds to breach a contact order? if a child was at emotional risk?

every contact change has involved kinship care, they have even done informal mediations with us and any changes were worked through agreed between us, so none of these were decided by myself. i have worked w/ mum anytime changes have been made, but due to the safeguarding issues, that's something i had to decide for myself and it was not easy at all. plenty of talks with kinship care team before i decided to arrange phone call contact while mum works on herself for g/ds benefit and safety. but would this not be costly for SGs going back and forth changing court orders all the time e.g if mum sorts herself out an application goes forward to increase, then if mum's behaviour gets aggressive an application goes in to decrease? it seems like a back and forth system but as an SG on a 16hr job w/ benefits and an SG allowance how would i afford that?

the more i have read posts about SGOs it seems it's a raw deal cut for the carer involved. clearly there would be reasons for birth parents to not look after their child/ren, whether be it physical, emotional, drug/alcohol etc. but it shouldn't mean those who have put their lives aside to look after their little ones should suffer.

[Robin D]

As it's a weekend I will answer in the hope of allowing you to relax a little. @Suzie will hopefully provide better advice early in the week.

I suspect the advice telling you that technically you are in breach of the order has caused you concern. Of course she is correct, but there are two mitigations that the court would take into account should it ever be brought back to court:
1. You have an absolute duty to protect the child from harm. You cannot be expected to understand exactly what emotional harm is likely to be caused, but are aware that it's a risk so are taking steps to avoid it. However I would always suggest that you advise the local authority in writing following every such incident.
2. You may or may not find the proposed mediation helpful. If you decide to participate, that's fine, but if not, the court can now insist you participate following a decision in Churchill v Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council [2023] EWCA Civ 1416 if they think it is proportionate. Whether a court would do so under the circumstances is matter of conjecture given that the above ruling is so recent. I guess it depends on your reasons for not taking part that from what you say here seem reasonable. You must remember that the mum still has to apply for 'leave' to take the matter back to court. To do that, she would need to show something significant had changed. I can't really advise you either way except to say that just because you meet the mediator, it does not mean you then have to participate in the face to face conversation. You may have the option of speaking to the mediator before making a final decision.

A technical breach is a like sitting at a red light when an ambulance of blue light comes up behind you, so you carefully go through the red light and pull over so the ambulance can get through. Yes you break the law, but if you can show you did in order with eth best possible intentions.

While I can understand why you feel the way you do about Special Guardianship, you will have to take my word for it, that it's much better than what went before which was usually a residence order. That could be (and was) challenged ad nauseum by some birth parents. Local Authorities sometimes were taking Care Proceedings meaning the child was in care simply to take the constant pressure from carers in private proceedings. The PR a RO gave was equal to the PR held by either parent which could cause all sorts of issues around schools, residence, doctors etc. A SGO holder can exercise PR to the exclusion of others. Adoption of course does give more control but can really upset the family structure for the child when adopted by a family member.

Unfortunately managing contact generally falls on the person caring for the child and that, as you have found, can be very difficult. You have to consider the welfare of the child both if contact does or does not take place and sometimes it's not an easy decision. In my view the LA should be providing you support to make that decision and/or whether to attend mediation.

Whatever you decide, please make sure you document everything especially if mum gets aggressive. If in doubt always walk away with the child. If you feel you or the child is at risk of physical harm or abduction, then the police should be called. Hopefully it never gets that far. (But did for us with one child who was abducted by mum and boyfriend during contact!)

I regret I cannot wave a magic wand and make it easy for you. Staying calm, documenting everything, and being confident that any decision you do make is taking into account the needs and wishes of the child will see you through this.

Best wishes .... Robin

[Suzie, FRG Adviser]

hello there, i needa bit of advice if some1can help pls... i have an sgo for my gd she's 7 and there's been problems with the mum at contact...been aggressive n keeps giving verbal abuse at me at contact in front of the kid multiple times to the point where she's crying and ask if it's her fault so i absolutely reassured the little one it's not. abusive texts come thru that i dare not reply to because no matter how reasonable n calm i am, it just comes back as my fault. kinship care team from LA have been by my side the whole way and supportive, cannot fault em, always said the little one is absolutely thriving and everything i've done is in her best interest and never been unreasonable. but cos of mum's behaviour in front of the little one (more than once it's happened) i've told her until she's a bit more stable, she can call instead. order originally states she can see her once a month 3 hours all supervised by me, but i decided myself with the little ones wishes to do 2x a month. i have changed the arranged days at mum's request, the meeting place at her request, paid for mum when shes said she's short, even let time run over on the occasional day contact has went well for the little one, all to help mum and daughter build a relationship but abuse is still coming through and the little one has said she's scared and feels unsafe and i been accussed of lying by mum yet my gd told the LA herself when i reported it, thats why i've said calls only for now until mum manages herself for the sake of the kid then face to face can resume as before. always been patient with mum as she got sum MH issues but does not mean i should put up w/ abuse. but now been nearly 3 months and not a call or text has come thru only an invite to mediate for unsupervised and this is the 3rd time yet she was told by me, LA and dad that she is not ready yet. feel her frustration but i got to keep the little one safe as i'm the SG. will always try keep mum and kid in contact no matter what as she loves her mummy but needs to be safely. have i done the right thing???

Dear spottydog45

Welcome to Family Rights Group kinship carers’ discussion forum and thank you for posting.

My name is Suzie, online adviser at Family Rights Group. I see from your post that you are caring for your 7-year-old granddaughter under a special guardianship order (SGO) but have been experiencing difficulties with her mother relating to contact.

From your post it appears that you have tried hard to be supportive of the mother’s contact taking account of her own difficulties. However, as you rightly state, you have to ensure that your granddaughter safe and exposed to the mother’s abusive behaviour. The action you have taken regarding contact seem to be with your granddaughter's interest and as special guardian you can make that call. However, you could also ask the court the change the order to fit with your granddaughter’s wishes In this way, you could not be accused of breaking the terms of the court order in respect of changes to contact arrangements which you believe are needed.

You may find it helpful to read our advice sheet relating to special guardianship for parents. As a special guardian your parental responsibility trumps mum and dad and you can make all important decisions relating to your granddaughter. Read more HERE

The mother has invited you to mediation which suggests she intends to apply to the court, and this is required before she makes her application. It is for you to decide if you wish to attend but I suggest you take part as an independent third party may be able to help in reaching a resolution without going to court. As the mother is often abusive towards you, it is possible to have separate meetings with the mediator. You say everyone agrees that mother is not ready for unsupervised contact. In the circumstances, it appears that you are doing what is expected of a special guardian to keep the child safe. In response to your question whether you have done the right thing, on the information you have given and not knowing the full background, it ap-pears that you have done so.

I hope this will be of help to you. However, should you wish to speak with one or our experienced adviser, you can telephone our advice line on 0808 801 0366. The advice line is open from 9.30am to 3.00pm Monday to Friday (excluding Bank Holidays)

Best wishes

Suzie